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The MP2015’s SUBMIX Channel Explained

Shaun Whitcher Rane Forum Admin

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Shaun Whitcher 3:03:30 - 27 March 2015

Ask questions about the blog post here :)

maDJam

maDJam 1:39:52 - 06 April 2015

Hey Shaun/Zach!

My question here has to do with the note at the end of the blog:

“To avoid common phase issues when connecting external effect units, set the Wet/Dry all the way to Wet and use the Wet/Dry control on the external effect unit to control the amount of the effect.”

So I got Pioneer’s EFX-500, 1000, RMX500 & RMX1000… the RMX’s don’t have a wet dry control since they are usually placed as an “insert loop” or FX send/return that doesn’t phase with the DJM900/800/2000.

However using the RMX with the Xone:92 does phase if level is boosted quite a lot- my prefered setup is using the Xone:92 with the EFX1000 since it has a dedicated wet/dry knob and my settings are with the FX always on and fully set to “wet”

That way only the additional audio is returned back to the Xone’s Aux return (channel 1 or 2). Using the RMX in the same way creates nasty phase issues…

So while waiting for my MP2015 to make it’s way over here, what would be the better FX unit to use with the MP2015? If it was a line direct (like DJTechTools video) I was even considering maybe getting a couple guitar fx/stompboxes, but don’t know if that would phase out with the FX wet/dry (since it’s not a send/return but more of a loop). Even considering whipping out the old Kaoss Pad 3+ if need be, have you tried any of ‘em out?

Once the mixer gets to this side of the planet I’ll experiment with both RMX & EFX and let you know how it goes :D

Shaun Whitcher Rane Forum Admin

ADMIN
Shaun Whitcher 9:34:41 - 07 April 2015

maDJam - 06 April 2015 01:39 PM

Hey Shaun/Zach!

My question here has to do with the note at the end of the blog:

“To avoid common phase issues when connecting external effect units, set the Wet/Dry all the way to Wet and use the Wet/Dry control on the external effect unit to control the amount of the effect.”

So I got Pioneer’s EFX-500, 1000, RMX500 & RMX1000… the RMX’s don’t have a wet dry control since they are usually placed as an “insert loop” or FX send/return that doesn’t phase with the DJM900/800/2000.

However using the RMX with the Xone:92 does phase if level is boosted quite a lot- my prefered setup is using the Xone:92 with the EFX1000 since it has a dedicated wet/dry knob and my settings are with the FX always on and fully set to “wet”

That way only the additional audio is returned back to the Xone’s Aux return (channel 1 or 2). Using the RMX in the same way creates nasty phase issues…

So while waiting for my MP2015 to make it’s way over here, what would be the better FX unit to use with the MP2015? If it was a line direct (like DJTechTools video) I was even considering maybe getting a couple guitar fx/stompboxes, but don’t know if that would phase out with the FX wet/dry (since it’s not a send/return but more of a loop). Even considering whipping out the old Kaoss Pad 3+ if need be, have you tried any of ‘em out?

Once the mixer gets to this side of the planet I’ll experiment with both RMX & EFX and let you know how it goes :D

As long as the MP2015 insert is set to all Wet, I wouldn’t think you’d experience any phasing issues with the Pioneer effect units, but I’d need to test things to be certain. Unfortunately, I don’t access to any of the RMX units at this time.

The KP3 works great. I’ve been using one with the MP2015 and it works well.

A lot of DJs are starting to use the Boss DD-7 Delay pedal and RV-5 reverb pedal. They sound great and have wet/dry controls.

Here’s a couple links:

DD-7: http://www.bossus.com/products/dd-7/
RV-5: http://www.bossus.com/products/rv-5/

The nice thing about the Boss units are they aren’t very expensive :)

krizm0

krizm0 5:43:28 - 14 June 2015

Hey guys,

Is it possible to return a signal sent to an external effect unit back via a normal channel, for example the aux input?
Or is the signal flow interrupted, when I activate the effect button but don’t use the “effect return” inputs?
But I guess with the effect knob being set all the way to dry, it might work, doesn’t it?
Is there a diagram for the dry/wet curve like in the image being attached?
Would it be a good suggestion, to have different curves selectable in the control panel?

Image Attachments
IMG_20150615_182643.jpg
Shaun Whitcher Rane Forum Admin

ADMIN
Shaun Whitcher 10:00:20 - 15 June 2015

krizm0 - 14 June 2015 05:43 AM

Hey guys,

Is it possible to return a signal sent to an external effect unit back via a normal channel, for example the aux input?
Or is the signal flow interrupted, when I activate the effect button but don’t use the “effect return” inputs?
But I guess with the effect knob being set all the way to dry, it might work, doesn’t it?
Is there a diagram for the dry/wet curve like in the image being attached?
Would it be a good suggestion, to have different curves selectable in the control panel?

Hi krizm0,

With the send knob set to dry, the sends should output signal to your effects unit. Curious why you wouldn’t want the effect to return to the Submix channel? The Submix channel features a 3 band ISO EQ, 3-way filter and mix level control.

krizm0

krizm0 12:02:08 - 15 June 2015

Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

With the send knob set to dry, the sends should output signal to your effects unit.

Awesome. I knew that my investment in this little beauty wouldn’t be wrong, can’t wait for its arrival.

Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

Curious why you wouldn’t want the effect to return to the Submix channel?

I knew that you would ask ;)

When using delays or reverbs, I prefer to have a full channel for the modified signal only, where I have separate EQs for the original and modified audio signals.
In addition this way you can use the Mix knobs to create your own “dry/wet” curve depending on the current needs of the used effect (assuming signal is sent pre fader to the effect unit, which is not possible with the MP2015, right? the dry/wet knob might help here I guess).
Try it yourself, this gives you much more control over the effect. Try a delay where you cut the lows out of the modified signal and add this to the original for example.

Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

The Submix channel features a 3 band ISO EQ, 3-way filter and mix level control.

As well as a normal channel. Difference is by using a normal channel, you modify the wet signal only. Then you have full channel control for the dry signal(s) and one full channel for the wet signal.
Not to forget that you can prelisten the wet signal prior entering the soundsystem. =)


The only problem I could see is that there might be an infinite feedback loop if you send the wet aux channel back to the submix again. One just has to be aware of that.
May sound funny though if you activate the submix for a wet delay for a short time in this scenario.

krizm0

krizm0 4:01:49 - 16 June 2015

In addition, when I understand the concept of the MP2015 correct, I think it is also possible to use the USB channels to send the submix to the effects input of Traktor and the effect output of Traktor back to one of the four channels, right?

See here: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/support/knowledge-base/show/619/how-to-use-the-send-effects-in-traktor/

Then a physical effect unit would be obsolete. This would be a massive improvement cause one could get rid of the D/A and A/D conversion for a physical effect unit and has automatically synced effects (for the case of DVS) while using the same routing as described above without using the effect loop of the MP2015 at all.

By the way, why aren’t there USB channels for Effect Send Record, Effect Return Playback and Aux In Playback?
When browsing again through the USB channels being listed in the manual I understand the rational behind every single one especially when reading the wording “playback” and “record”, but from a signal flow point of view it makes absolutely sense to have a digital effect loop. And a USB channel for the Aux In would make sense as well because then you could change the deck being used by using the source selection switches on the mixer during a mix without editing software configurations.
I know that there would be hardware switches required for that (like the Session Input is handled), but is this also possible via software switches on the control panel?

But nevertheless even without these channels, I love your piece of art. Hopefully I will get my hands on it the next days. =)

Shaun Whitcher Rane Forum Admin

ADMIN
Shaun Whitcher 3:39:58 - 18 June 2015

krizm0 - 15 June 2015 12:02 PM
Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

With the send knob set to dry, the sends should output signal to your effects unit.

Awesome. I knew that my investment in this little beauty wouldn’t be wrong, can’t wait for its arrival.

Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

Curious why you wouldn’t want the effect to return to the Submix channel?

I knew that you would ask ;)

When using delays or reverbs, I prefer to have a full channel for the modified signal only, where I have separate EQs for the original and modified audio signals.
In addition this way you can use the Mix knobs to create your own “dry/wet” curve depending on the current needs of the used effect (assuming signal is sent pre fader to the effect unit, which is not possible with the MP2015, right? the dry/wet knob might help here I guess).
Try it yourself, this gives you much more control over the effect. Try a delay where you cut the lows out of the modified signal and add this to the original for example.

Shaun Whitcher - 15 June 2015 10:00 AM

The Submix channel features a 3 band ISO EQ, 3-way filter and mix level control.

As well as a normal channel. Difference is by using a normal channel, you modify the wet signal only. Then you have full channel control for the dry signal(s) and one full channel for the wet signal.
Not to forget that you can prelisten the wet signal prior entering the soundsystem. =)


The only problem I could see is that there might be an infinite feedback loop if you send the wet aux channel back to the submix again. One just has to be aware of that.
May sound funny though if you activate the submix for a wet delay for a short time in this scenario.

Ah I see. You’re right, this is not realy possible with the submix, as any attenuation of the ‘dry’ signal would affect the sends feeding the wet signal being sent to the submix bus.

You can run your return signal into another channel on the MP2015, just make sure you don’t send that channel to the Submix. Also, make sure the Dry/Wet control is set to all Dry. 

Shaun Whitcher Rane Forum Admin

ADMIN
Shaun Whitcher 4:28:36 - 18 June 2015

krizm0 - 16 June 2015 04:01 AM

In addition, when I understand the concept of the MP2015 correct, I think it is also possible to use the USB channels to send the submix to the effects input of Traktor and the effect output of Traktor back to one of the four channels, right?

See here: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/support/knowledge-base/show/619/how-to-use-the-send-effects-in-traktor/

Then a physical effect unit would be obsolete. This would be a massive improvement cause one could get rid of the D/A and A/D conversion for a physical effect unit and has automatically synced effects (for the case of DVS) while using the same routing as described above without using the effect loop of the MP2015 at all.

By the way, why aren’t there USB channels for Effect Send Record, Effect Return Playback and Aux In Playback?
When browsing again through the USB channels being listed in the manual I understand the rational behind every single one especially when reading the wording “playback” and “record”, but from a signal flow point of view it makes absolutely sense to have a digital effect loop. And a USB channel for the Aux In would make sense as well because then you could change the deck being used by using the source selection switches on the mixer during a mix without editing software configurations.
I know that there would be hardware switches required for that (like the Session Input is handled), but is this also possible via software switches on the control panel?

But nevertheless even without these channels, I love your piece of art. Hopefully I will get my hands on it the next days. =)

Correct, you can assign USB channels to use Traktors effects in Send mode. You have to set the USB buffer really low to avoid weird latency/phasing stuff.

The Rane 68, 64, 61 & 62 had dedicated USB Effect Send/Return channels, but almost no one every utilized them, so we changed things when designing the MP2015.

Having a PGM channel USB AUX option would be helpful. Unfortunately, it’s not possible with how the mixer is designed. The AUX input on the rear isn’t part of the USB audio channel stream. There is a USB AUX channel though (added to the Session IN), but it’s not selectable or assignable to one of the regular PGM channels (only the Submix bus).

 

krizm0

krizm0 11:20:30 - 18 June 2015

Shaun Whitcher - 18 June 2015 03:39 PM

Ah I see. You’re right, this is not realy possible with the submix, as any attenuation of the ‘dry’ signal would affect the sends feeding the wet signal being sent to the submix bus.

This is still the case. Modifying the dry signal still effects the wet of course. it’s more the other case, that so you are able to modify the wet signal without effecting the dry one.

Shaun Whitcher - 18 June 2015 04:28 PM

You have to set the USB buffer really low to avoid weird latency/phasing stuff.

Thanks for the tip.

Shaun Whitcher - 18 June 2015 04:28 PM

The Rane 68, 64, 61 & 62 had dedicated USB Effect Send/Return channels, but almost no one every utilized them, so we changed things when designing the MP2015.

That’s a pitty, can’t understand why the people don’t use them. This channel makes more sense to me than the 4 deck record channels for example.

Shaun Whitcher - 18 June 2015 04:28 PM

Having a PGM channel USB AUX option would be helpful. Unfortunately, it’s not possible with how the mixer is designed. The AUX input on the rear isn’t part of the USB audio channel stream.

A USB channel that could be selected on all decks would have been great though, maybe for the next version. =)

Mattigaan

Mattigaan 11:27:32 - 04 January 2016

Hi all,

Interesting discussion you had about this, some good points/ideas laid out above!

One question I have concerning using external FX…In the blog post this discussion stemmed from there is a section that states: “The effect can also be cued prior to bringing the effected audio into the mix. This is done by sending the desired channel(s) to the SUBMIX, making sure the the SUBMIX MIX level turned all the way down, and pressing the Cue button within the SUBMIX. Once the desired effect is achieved, bring in the affected audio by turning up the MIX level in the SUBMIX.”

I just tried this with a delay pedal but no luck. Whenever I turn the SUBMIX MIX down, it cuts out all the audio/no level LEDs. When I then press the cue button on the SUBMIX, still nothing. Am I doing something wrong? Or is that part of the blog a mistake? I tried Krizm0’s workaround of routing the FX output to a spare channel which worked a treat. I think i prefer this way anyway as it gives you EQ/Filter options of the wet signal but would still like to know if the ‘proper’ way can be cue’d.

Thanks

krizm0

krizm0 11:36:31 - 06 January 2016

I think this must be a little mistake in the blog post, but if not, I would be curious as well. =)

Mattigaan

Mattigaan 8:58:46 - 15 January 2016

Can anyone from Rane respond, please? Would like to know if what the blog says is do-able or just an honest mistake.

Thanks

{name}

Orge 5:59:02 - 09 March 2016

Double Post

{name}

Orge 5:59:51 - 09 March 2016

Just got this mixer and started playing with the submix and effects.

I have an RMX 1000 and it works fine as an insert effect on the fx loop with the wet/dry set to fully wet. You get phasing at any other position, even with latency at around 4ms (the lowest I can get atm). Triggering with the X-Pad then lets you add little fills etc without muddying the sound too much (also make sure only X-Pad input lit) .

In addition, I’ve also had success routing the submix to ableton and then returning audio via the USB session input. This gives you a more traditional send/return without taking up an extra channel. Admittedly, EQing/Filtering then has to be done on the Ableton side, but I figure this is a reasonable trade-off vs losing a channel.

It’s a shame they didn’t think a little more about the effects loop/submix on this mixer. Access to the effects loop via USB and/or enabling the submix to work as a traditional send/return would have greatly increased the flexibility. For me, it would be perfect if the the channel audio was made available on the submix but the channel still passed through to the main outputs as usual. You could then use the eq of the submix to filter before sending it out to FX via the rca’s or usb and returning via the effects return or session in. Presumably, the signal path is sufficiently HW based that it wouldn’t be possible/easy to change this now, even as a control panel option?

I’m also surprised to hear that Rane’s impression of effects loops is that nobody ever uses the? For techno and house DJ’s, which is presumably the target market for this mixer, it’s one of the main features that has elevated the Xone 92 to cult status! Consequently, you would have thought they would appreciate this as an important feature for a mixer without onboard effects. Indeed, I’d say it’s still an important feature for those that do have effects (e.g. The DB4 missed this trick too).

Still it’s a great mixer and I am now fairly convinced that it will replace my DB4.

J

{name}

Orge 6:19:28 - 09 March 2016

Actually, even better would be send it to the submix, whilst going direct to the main outputs as usual. Then bypass the submix EQ, filter and volume whilst still sending MIDI CC and grab the returning audio via USB. This would allow the knobs on the submix channel to be used to control the effects and give you full flexibility of how you would like to route/implement your effects.

We can but dream, eh?

J

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